Dice Control
Dice control in casino craps is a controversial theory where proponents claim that individuals can learn to carefully toss the dice so as to influence the outcome. A small but dedicated community of dice shooters claim proof of dice influencing in casino conditions. Dice control is a pariah subject in some circles of gambling authors and experts. The game of craps tends to attract more scam authors and 'system hawkers', who peddle betting methods and other voodoo to 'win'.
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It’s the notion that you can control the outcome of a dice roll to increase the likelihood of certain numbers appearing more or less often to reduce the house advantage. It comes in several varieties depending on how far the hustler wants to push the absurdity of the notion. Some scammers claim you can learn to roll certain numbers at will. In this video I will be showing you on how to make easy money at the casino tables by using dice control. I will explain the way I like to set and hit number.
The dice controller (dice influencer) on the other hand not only sets the dice but takes care with his roll. Here the object isn’t just a dice set but some control of the outcome of a roll. No longer a totally random game in this case.
Can a “dice setter” be thrown out of the casinos? Yes. I’ve never personally seen a plain, old dice setter who does not have a controlled throw bounced (other than for drunkenness or that kind of thing). I’ve never seen a drink spilled on someone who has had hot rolls in order to cool him off, whether that someone is merely a dice setter or a dice controller. Why bother losing beverage money when the “tap on the shoulder” can start the heave-ho-ing? (Note: Alan Mendelson mentioned in a post that he got the “tap” at several Vegas casinos and he had no dice control skill. So he is the exception to my experience.)
Yes, a dice controller can be barred (“Sir, you can play any other game in the casino but you cannot shoot the dice at craps.”) or banned. (“If you come back to this casino in the future you will be arrested for trespassing.”) Although casinos in Vegas, other Nevada venues, Mississippi and in most of the Midwest casinos don’t have to give a reason, they usually do. (“Sir, you are too good for us.”)
Sadly both things have happened to me. In Tunica, in a single week, I was banned from every casino. (I have the full story of this in my book The Virgin Kiss.) I was threatened with arrest if I returned (the banning in Fitzgerald’s was nasty; the banning at the Grand – now Harrah’s – was almost comical – it took eight suits to do it; the banning at Sam’s Town was weird because I hadn’t even started playing) and the pit boss at Gold Strike let me know that no matter what casino I went into I would get the heave-ho. He was right. I went into three more and out I was escorted. They didn’t want my play in Mississippi. This was for craps by the way. Most were “trespassing” offenses (if I came back I would get arrested for trespassing) and a couple were a little scary (although the scariest banning that ever happened to me was in the early 1990s in Vegas).
I know many of you have seen “My Cousin Vinny” and you think it is a comedy. It’s actually a documentary. I do not want to go to jail in Mississippi.
The following year I went down to Tunica to teach a dice control class. We had 40 students. The sheriff’s department came to the non-casino hotel where we were going to hold the class and told me that I would be arrested if I held the class because I would be using “gaming tables” to teach the students on and there was some kind of “Faro” law from the 1800’s that banned gaming tables for private use.
My lawyer said we would win the case hands-down as we had won a case in the early 2000’s where we were also threatened with arrest for teaching how to beat the casinos. (“No one is allowed to teach people the casino games in Mississippi unless you are a dealers’ school.”) We took that case to the Mississippi attorney general who realized it was a “free speech” case and he withdrew the charges. Still, it cost a small fortune to establish “free speech” in Mississippi. This victory allowed other dice control teachers to continue with their classes.
My lawyer also told me that Mississippi would keep bringing up reasons to arrest me even though they would lose every case. His view was that the state was only interested in harassing me by costing me lawyers’ fees. He recommended that we move our classes to Tennessee which we did. I haven’t set foot in Mississippi since, although I am glad that Mississippi has finally passed the 13th Amendment to the Constitution in recent years which was the Amendment that outlawed slavery. (http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/270499/1/Mississippi-Ratifies-13th-Amendment-148-Years-After-Slavery-Abolished)
We hired buses and drove all of our students into Tennessee. As I just said, I haven’t stepped foot in Mississippi since.
My most recent banning for craps was at Bellagio in Las Vegas. The full story of that banning will be in my next book. It was a really nasty banning shared with Jerry “Stickman,” John “Skinny,” and “Not Too Soon.” I mean a really nasty, nasty banning.
Those writers who claim that no one has ever been banned for dice control just haven’t experienced it or don’t know anyone who has been unfortunate enough to be “asked” to leave the casinos or threatened with arrest should they return. Trust me, it is not fun. Trust me, it has happened.
Although Atlantic City cannot technically ban an advantage player, it can make your play a PITA (pain-in-the-ass). One night in 2002 or 2003 (memory fails at the moment), John “Skinny” in front of 10 witnesses was almost physically assaulted by a Pit Boss named Francis at the Claridge. John is an excellent dice controller and had just rolled his 26th number. He is also a BIG bettor, often orange chips. The dice scooted over to the box person’s side of the table, out of the view of Francis who was hovering over the game like a buzzard. Francis leaped over to the table and started yelling at Skinny.
We had about eight other people at the table including Marilyn “the Goddess,” Charlie “Sandtrap,” Jack “the Raging Baritone,” Dominator, Jerry “Stickman” and some others whose names I have forgotten at the moment.
John “Skinny” had indeed hit the back wall with both dice. We all saw that, as did the dealers. But when asked about it, the dealers stayed mum – obviously they didn’t want to contradict their raging boss. Several rolls later, Skinny did miss the back wall. At that point, Francis leapt across the table – and I mean across the table with his whole body – going after Skinny who backed up. If I were writing fiction I’d have had Francis foaming at the mouth during this encounter. He wasn’t foaming, just slobbering and spitting.
Francis said he would take the dice away from Skinny if he missed the back wall again. The floor person and box person helped Francis get off the table. Skinny sevened out a few rolls later and took all his orange chips and colored up. We all colored up.
There was a casino manager at Trump Plaza who also tended to go berserk when we played there – this was probably eight years ago. He’d come down and start threatening to take the dice away if we missed the back wall. For some strange reason, some casino people (and some players) think that is what a dice controller is trying to do – miss the back wall. Not so. Since the throw is geared to hitting the back wall, a back wall miss is probably just a random throw. (I am discounting those few players who can actually do a “kill shot.”) I have information about the back wall in “Cutting Edge Craps.” It isn’t always what it seems.
Maybe the all time record for being barred for craps happened at Bally’s in Vegas when 17 of us – yes 17 of us – playing at two different tables were “asked” to leave in a most disgraceful way. It seems both tables had shooters who were wickedly on fire – happily I was one of them. The casino was losing a lot of money. (Not all dice controllers are small bettors although that is another myth that seems to have circulated.) The suits and security guards came over in force. They stopped the game. They surrounded us.
Since true nastiness reigned during this, one of our players Arman “Pit Boss,” got into a face-to-face shouting match with the casino manager. If Arman had gone totally nuts (he’s a former soccer player and strong as a former soccer player), that casino manager would have been toast. We pulled him away and all 17 of us left the casino.
I am now writing a chapter in a new book about the experiences I have had in the area of ungracious behavior by casinos. I go into detail about such cases.
Why did my bannings happen? I only have myself to blame. I ruined myself in Tunica because I kept going back and back and back for more. I should have lessened the length of my stays, not played at the same casinos time and time again. I didn’t follow my own advice. Same thing happened at Bellagio. Same at Treasure Island. Same at other Vegas casinos. But I’ve also experienced (too many times!), the tap for blackjack as well.
casino, would you let you play? Can you blame them
for their treatment of you? You're one of the few
really famous people in the gaming world, you've
written books on how to beat casinos at various games,
and here you are playing at their casinos, rubbing it
in their faces. What would you expect them to do.
What would you do if you were in their place.
You really can't have it all. You can't write books for decades,
have TV shows done about you, become world famous,
and expect casinos to treat you any different than
they do. You're like John Dillinger complaining because
they kick him out the banks he goes into. Being an
unknown is every AP's trump card, most guard it with
great care. As you've just shown, with good reason..
Frank and his fellows should as a matter of good business sense be welcomed into each and every casino they visit. Here is why...
Gambling is built on a dream. Just as golfers take to the links dreaming of playing one hole during their round just like Tiger and Jack ('Honey, I birdied no. 14 today!), gamblers visit the gaming tables dreaming of the big score.
Casinos need the Frank Scobletes of the world, making money and writing of their big scores. So the rest of us have something to dream about when we walk through the door.
I see it somewhat differently. I used to recommend Tunica as the best place to gamble in the country in the 1990s. I wrote articles for several newspapers and magazines down there. I did a radio show each week. I probably sent them thousands of players. (It was the best place to play in the 1990s on the whole.)
Bellagio is no different. When my team (The Five Horsemen) played there before anyone knew we were there, maybe that would have been a time for them to ask us to leave. However, once word got out that we played there, the place became packed with random rollers looking to play with us, unskilled dice controllers wishing to play with us, and others wondering where all these craps players were coming from. Indeed, we once had over 20 people follow us into the casino from Las Vegas Blvd. The week I was banned from Bellagio, there were easily over a hundred players from GTC or friends of those from GTC who packed the place. I would say most of these players were random rollers; their spouses or significant others were probably playing other games as well.
As a casino manager, if I knew someone could be beat my casino I would do a very simple thing. Does this person bring in more business because he is playing here? If so, let him play. We'll make money even if it isn't off of him. In the case of a couple, one a slot player and one an advantage-player, as a couple do they lose more than they win? If so, let them play.
Sometimes I think the casinos are penny wise and pound foolish.
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
Exactly. And probably never will.
But conversely, casinos also generate an aura for themselves by doing bannings. And that aura is, of course, the fact that banning alleged Advantage Players means, after all, that it must be possible to beat a casino.
So, probably, bannings will continue.
As a casino manager, if I knew someone could be beat my casino I would do a very simple thing. Does this person bring in more business because he is playing here? If so, let him play. We'll make money even if it isn't off of him. In the case of a couple, one a slot player and one an advantage-player, as a couple do they lose more than they win? If so, let them play.
Sometimes I think the casinos are penny wise and pound foolish.
This is hardly limited to casino management. In fact it is universal in management I feel, one of the reasons I no longer care much to get back to mid-level management. Upper-management can say, 'hey the place did great this month!' But mid-level from say floor to box-man can have their bosses point to a winning player and say, 'how did you let that happen?' Since most lower-level managers sooner or later get a job goal of not being hassled they ban the winning player. When the drop is off that falls somewhere else. They can retort that the hold is better. But the bottom line falls. That comes back to upper management.
As a casino manager, if I knew someone could be beat my casino I would do a very simple thing.
FrankS's multi-billion dollar casino opened yesterday in Las Vegas Nevada.You are walking thru your table game pit and notice a quite a few Blackjack dealers really talking a lot with their players
and not really dealing the game while talking.
Watching the Craps action, you notice DIs are taking between 10 to 20 seconds
to roll the dice on average as compared to 1 to 2 seconds for those that do not fuss with the dice
and many of their (DI) rolls are short, not even hitting the back wall with one or both of the dice.
You wonder in your mind as you make it to your million dollar office and sit down,
the less number of hands per hour at BJ and the less number of rolls per hour and higher # of short rolls at Craps
could some how change your bottom line for the worse.
You call one of your bean counters in and have her look into it.
You go to lunch and come back to a report on your desk about the matter.
Just as you thought, those actions cost the casino real $$$ and a lot of it over a years time.
You have a board meeting tomorrow too.
Do you make any changes to the chatty BJ dealers and the DIs at YOUR craps tables??
or
Do you just let the BJ dealers talk and talk and not deal at a decent pace
Dice Control In Craps
and the local DIs still taking a long time to roll the dice with many short rolls still continue??The crowd a person of your noteriety probably brings is not the crowd these casinos are looking for... For example if you are teaching players not to bet on other random rollers, you are packing the tables, yet slowing down their money!!! The words 'school and practice' are automatically time consuming words.. And time is money on their clock.
Second, The 'let me win and I'll bring you the losers' pimp roll is played out. These games sell themselves... If they stopped every DI at the front door, the table would still be full. It's easy to think of what you do now, but can you even remember the allure of what got YOU TO THE TABLE?. There will be 'another you' right behind us. Having to learn, take losses, finding a crew, and then getting banned later, too. The cycle never stops
Craps Dice Control - Setting the Dice and Beating the Casino
Dice Setting and Casino Craps
'Dice control' or 'dice setting' is an advantage play technique used in craps to set and throw the dice in such a way as to make the dice more likely to land on certain numbers. Skeptics assert that controlling the dice in this way is practically impossible, but notable gambling experts like Michael Shackleford and Stanford Wong seem to give some credence to the notion that this might be possible. If so, then dice and craps could be elevated to a game of skill like darts or pool.
This section of our site tries to provide some basic information about how to set the dice in craps.
Dice Setting Tutorial
You don't have to be a certain size to succeed at dice control. Being left-handed or right-handed doesn't matter either. Age and gender simply are not factors either. And you can stand anywhere at the table and still succeed at dice control. With practice, anyone can become a winning shooter. All it takes is enough practice to perfect your technique.
The number of fingers used to handle the dice varies from shooter to shooter. One crapshooter might use 2 fingers, while another may opt for the 5-finger approach. And even if 2 shooters use the same number of digits, it’s likely that the positioning of their fingers will differ.
How to Control The Dice
Tossing dice can be broken down into 3 distinct elements. They are:
- Grip
- Alignment
- Delivery
Grip
For illustrations of the various acceptable ways to grip the dice, check out one of the following websites:
Most dice control instructors will tell you that the less you actually have to touch the dice the better. In other words, hold the dice where you can exert maximum control over the spin, but also try to keep contact between your fingers and the dice to a minimum. Of course, you ultimately have to find the grip which is best for you and use it.
It is also important to be sure and place equal pressure on each die. This will take some practice, but it is crucial in establishing proper dice control technique. If done properly, the 2 dice in your hand should feel as though you are holding one rectangular object. If it feels like you are holding two distinct dice, then you aren't doing it right.
Make sure that the dice have no space between them when preparing to throw. If you don’t, then the dice may fly off in different directions when thrown. If you’re unsure of whether your dice are kissing each other, you can always turn your hand over and examine your dice from the bottom (it is best if you only do this during practice, as it will draw unnecessary attention at the craps table).
Alignment
When aligning the dice, remember to do so with the lines on the craps table. This should allow you to get the proper alignment on the vertical axis.
Also keep in mind that the axis running the width of the table does not matter. This is also called the left-right axis. Before tossing the dice, it does not matter if they begin straight up, straight down, or tilted towards the target.
The axis running the length of the table, also referred to as the fore-aft axis, is very important. The heel-toe alignment of the dice needs to be parallel to the felt. To make sure that your dice are properly aligned, lower them down to the level of the table. If you’re doing it right, the edges and faces of the dice should make solid contact with the table. With practice, this will become second nature.
Delivery
To deliver the dice means to throw them against the far wall of the table. You are generally expected by the dealer to throw the dice in such a way as to assure that they will hit the opposing wall. This is done to make sure that the dice will bounce off the wall and achieve a truly random number. Of course, since dice control is about getting anything but a random number, you will want to try and deliver the dice in a way which will minimize the amount of dice reaction after touchdown.
The secret to this is achieving backspin while making sure that the dice do not move on any other axes. If properly delivered, the dice will stay together as they fly through the air, rotating only on their left-right axes.
During your delivery, you may choose to pivot with your shoulder, elbow, or wrist. Each shooter will have a different technique, and there is really no right or wrong way. It’s all a matter of which technique works best for you.
If your throwing motion pivots on the shoulder, you may find that you tend to throw in an arc instead of a straight line. This can be fixed by rotating your wrist slightly to counteract the rotation of the shoulder. This may take a lot of practice to get just right, but it should become a natural motion with time.
Tossing the dice with a pivot of the elbow looks unnatural and may bring you unwanted attention from the powers that be. While dice control is not illegal, keep in mind that the casinos still have the right to bar you from play if they think you are simply too good for them. This type of throw also places strain on the elbow, which might especially be a problem for older players.
Dice Control Tips
Be sure and watch out for your thumb when tossing the dice. If your dice tend to cross over one another after being tossed, then your thumb is more than likely the guilty party. Be sure and throw the dice fast enough that your thumb loses contact with the dice before the roll off your fingers. Otherwise, the thumb will tend to push the dice apart.
Backspin is placed on the dice to counter the forward motion of the dice and to keep them from landing on a random number after bouncing against the back wall of the table. Keep in mind, however, that backspin must always be accompanied by axis control. If not, you will still achieve random results.
Sweaty fingers can also become a problem when tossing the dice.To counter this, try placing a piece of chalk in your pocket. When your fingers begin to get sweat on them, just reach into your pocket and get enough chalk dust on your fingers to counteract the perspiration. You might also want to try antiperspirant, although some pros complain that it makes their fingers sticky.
When you throw the dice, they should rotate together in the air and their left-right axes should be parallel to the table. If one die tends to fly higher than the other one, then chances are strong that you have a problem with your grip. The dice should also bounce straight forward. If your dice are bouncing to one side, then you probably did not align them correctly.
It is also important to not draw too much attention to yourself before handling the dice. Have a good time, talk with the other players, and try not to tip off the dealers to the fact that you are an advantage player. For example, stay away from big buy-ins. You might even try fumbling with the dice a bit to give the impression that you don’t spend every waking hour in your home practicing dice control.
When tossing the dice, try and make it look as natural as possible.If you are turning your hand upside down and examining the dice, this is going to tip off the dealers. And remember that casinos have the right to bar you from the craps table and even declare certain rolls void if they do not hit the back wall of the table. Just use a little common sense and you should be fine.
Craps Controlled Shooting
Dice Control - Some Final Thoughts
This article was intended to provide a basic overview of the proper things to strive for when tossing the dice. However, practice is the key ingredient. Practice enough and you’ll be a precision shooter in no time. Then all you’ll have to do is walk up to the craps table, place your bet, and watch the happy faces of the bettors as you roll 50 times straight.